Curse

elLOCOmutha · Sep 08, 2006, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Hi all

I have recently just started really getting into PvP and was wondering, is it really worth it to get -75 health just for 3 attribute points? I dont use them when im PvE I use minor runes, but this is a whole other ballgame in PvP.

I know with the higher attribute points you will do more damage or whatever the attributes go toward, but it just feels the loss of health points is kind of a scary thing to me.

Anyone give me some wisdom?

thanks

Zinger314 · Sep 08, 2006, 09:56 PM // 21:56

For maximum power, yes.

Sable Phoenix · Sep 08, 2006, 09:57 PM // 21:57

I believe 75 health is too steep a cost, no matter what the situation. Majors are perfectly fine; the health hit is a lot easier to absorb and 1 more attribute point is not going to make that much of a difference. For example, that 1 extra attribute point gives my Elementalist a whopping 6 extra damage on her Crystal Wave. That's not worth an extra -30 health cost.

Superior Runes ought to be -50 health at the absolute most, with Majors at -25, but that's a separate subject.

moriz · Sep 08, 2006, 10:06 PM // 22:06

that would make them too powerful though.

it really depends on the class. for example, most cripshot rangers will use a superior expertise rune, while most monks will not use a superior divine favor rune. similarily, warriors will generally use a superior weapon rune, while elementalists usually will not use a superior elemental rune.

having said all that, it really comes down to personal preference. you are playing the class, so if you are comfortable with your preference, don't let anyone tell you to use something different unless it's a very good reason.

Theus · Sep 08, 2006, 10:26 PM // 22:26

As a warrior you should have a superior rune on your Helmet for the weapon you are using,to maximize your damage output,as well as your ability to get criticals.

And a +42 Eviscerate is always fun.

Sable Phoenix · Sep 08, 2006, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

that would make them too powerful though.

No it wouldn't.

And I've offered just as much backing for my statement as you did yours.

elLOCOmutha · Sep 08, 2006, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theus

As a warrior you should have a superior rune on your Helmet for the weapon you are using,to maximize your damage output,as well as your ability to get criticals.

And a +42 Eviscerate is always fun.

I just used a superior in arena on my axe armor...and yes the ammount of damage I would do to a player in 3 hits made me laugh. Then I would plague signet back the conditions they put on me lol it was fun :P

I might keep using them...

2 words...DEEP WOUND! lol

Tainek · Sep 09, 2006, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Superior runes are typically used to hit breakpoints, such as a rangers 13 expertise, and where the extra attribute points will make a significant difference ( for example, and ele gaining 6 damage points on a 120 damage spell gains less than 5% extra damage, where a boon prot gains 15-20% more healing)

Red Locust · Sep 09, 2006, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Best case scenario is you have a second armor piece with a minor rune to switch to if you get spiked down and accumuate DP. Failing that, I'd use minors on everything other than a warrior or distortion ranger. A few extra damage on your skills might not kill someone, but -75hp on yourself definitely can kill you.

Actually I'd really hesitate to use a superior on a warrior without having the option of an armor swap to a minor rune. A warrior with heavy DP is dead meat.

Byron · Sep 09, 2006, 01:35 AM // 01:35

I admit that I no longer use sups on any players with 60 base armor, since the resulting HP drain is too much to justify one more attrib, IMHO. Warriors get sup for sure, though, since there is high enough armor to maintain survivability there. And to hell with the math - running a warrior without a sup rune just doesn't feel right.

TheOneMephisto · Sep 09, 2006, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Most casters don't require sup runes. For instance, most eles, mesmers, and necros can get all relevant breakpoints and get good enough usage out of their skills with all minors or one major. Warrior on the other hand almost always use a sup rune. Monks will generally use a Sup DF to precast boon, but will regularily run with a minor rune. On rangers it is all game. Just remember that a ranger with distortion is practically invincible, and that high expertise is very useful for energy-heavy ranger builds (looks at cripshot).

Greedy Gus · Sep 09, 2006, 05:20 AM // 05:20

Yes, using a sup on any character is fine. If you can get by hitting your breakpoints and getting desired levels of your character's primary attributes for what they're doing without a sup rune, then sure use a minor. I've ran a sup on all builds and been fine into the top 50 gvg. Don't let any scrubs tell you to never use sup runes, they're fine. Generally it's an option based on preference, build, and equipment (if you have a pve character, bring both).

stueyman2099 · Sep 09, 2006, 05:47 AM // 05:47

Pretty much agree with Gus here. Don't listen to these people who say Sup is useless. It most difinatly has it's place in this game, and like Gus said, many of the top players in the game (top 50 gvg) use them. Some builds you want sup, some major, and some you don't want any hp debufs and you go all minors.

Red Locust · Sep 09, 2006, 05:48 AM // 05:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Yes, using a sup on any character is fine. If you can get by hitting your breakpoints and getting desired levels of your character's primary attributes for what they're doing without a sup rune, then sure use a minor. I've ran a sup on all builds and been fine into the top 50 gvg. Don't let any scrubs tell you to never use sup runes, they're fine. Generally it's an option based on preference, build, and equipment (if you have a pve character, bring both).

That is just wrong advice. Any good PvP'er will tell you they won't run superiors on anything other than a warrior or ranger with distortion, unless the +3 is incredibly critical to the build (and as of right now I can't think of any standard build that would require one). I think it was WM who said they don't even run superiors on their warriors.

Superiors get you killed, and after that, they get you killed even more easily. At VoD they get you completely owned. This is why you do not run superiors, and even when you do it's preferable to have a minor armor set to switch to in case you get DP'ed heavily. It's not exactly rocket science to notice that a certain enemy character's health bar is dropping more violently than usual when subject to damage, assume that he's got superiors and keep putting him down. Okay, maybe it's not that simple in practice, but you'll still get shanked much more often if you're running around with superiors.

Wasteland Squidget · Sep 09, 2006, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

That is just wrong advice. Any good PvP'er will tell you they won't run superiors on anything other than a warrior or ranger with distortion, unless the +3 is incredibly critical to the build (and as of right now I can't think of any standard build that would require one). I think it was WM who said they don't even run superiors on their warriors.

Superiors get you killed, and after that, they get you killed even more easily. At VoD they get you completely owned. This is why you do not run superiors, and even when you do it's preferable to have a minor armor set to switch to in case you get DP'ed heavily. It's not exactly rocket science to notice that a certain enemy character's health bar is dropping more violently than usual when subject to damage, assume that he's got superiors and keep putting him down. Okay, maybe it's not that simple in practice, but you'll still get shanked much more often if you're running around with superiors.

Incorrect, IMO. The only characters where you generally try to avoid superiors and monks, and that's up for debate. Warriors almost always want to run them for the added damage, and on support casters they are usually quite feasable. Some split builds prefer not to run superiors because they can make you weaker in a non-monk environment, but in general they're a good idea.

Caster/ranger spikes are not that common these days. If you are getting constantly spiked down, improve your positioning and learn to watch for incoming adrenal spikes. It's far better to improve your play and still have a strong attribute spread than to give up give up superior runes.

Red Locust · Sep 09, 2006, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

Caster/ranger spikes are not that common these days. If you are getting constantly spiked down, improve your positioning and learn to watch for incoming adrenal spikes. It's far better to improve your play and still have a strong attribute spread than to give up give up superior runes.

Erm yes, improving your play is the better thing to do. And yet adrenal spike is all over the place and top guilds use it to take down opposing top guilds all the time. Good play and awareness are a requirement, not a substitute for not using superiors.

At the end of the day, a +2 duration on a hex/enchant or +5dmg on a skill won't be as useful as surviving a spike due to that extra 75hp. It's not a matter of "avoid the spike and don't rely on the +75hp" because people will be getting adrenal spiked and killed.

Wasteland Squidget · Sep 09, 2006, 08:38 AM // 08:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

Erm yes, improving your play is the better thing to do. And yet adrenal spike is all over the place and top guilds use it to take down opposing top guilds all the time. Good play and awareness are a requirement, not a substitute for not using superiors.

At the end of the day, a +2 duration on a hex/enchant or +5dmg on a skill won't be as useful as surviving a spike due to that extra 75hp. It's not a matter of "avoid the spike and don't rely on the +75hp" because people will be getting adrenal spiked and killed.

Thinking specifically in terms of warriors, if you're constantly getting spiked down as a warrior it is because of extension mistakes. Even in high level GvG matches, warriors don't usually get spiked down unless they make a play error (ie: caught in Frenzy.) They can make much better use of the extra damage.

Midline casters are more of a question and I can see not running a superior on some of them, but two factors make it attractive:

-Most midline casters run some kind of warrior defense, which makes them quite difficult to spike. It's not feasable to adrenal spike through Distortion if the player is watching for the spike, and Eles have a lot of spike deterrents at their disposal.

-Many midline caster builds spec into multiple attributes in order to better do their jobs. You're not just looking at a couple extra seconds on a skill, you're looking at whether it's feasable to bring an entire extra attribute line with a decent spec. Putting a ward on an ele or use of /Mo skills on a mesmer can require a lot of attribute points to be effective.

If you have a midline caster build that doesn't meet either of these requirements (easy attribute spread and no defensive skills) I can see running minors. Those kinds of builds are more the exception though.

audioaxes · Sep 09, 2006, 09:26 AM // 09:26

with the health armor and new majors not only do i use a sup in almost every build, i also sometimes throw in an addition major rune or do tripple majors to hit another break point

on a side note, in several builds that use a superior rune can be switched to a double major setup saving you +5 health

Greedy Gus · Sep 09, 2006, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

That is just wrong advice. Any good PvP'er will tell you they won't run superiors on anything other than a warrior or ranger with distortion

I'm a good PvP'er, and I am telling you that I've ran warriors, rangers, mesmers, necros, eles, ritualists, and assassins in top 100 GvG with sup runes (or preferably 2 major runes if that works out) and been perfectly fine. I'll run dom mesmers with a minor sometimes if the build doesn't need much attribute dedication, and I run crippling anguish mesmers and thumpers with minors always because it's easy.

I don't play monk, but when I make builds I put sup DF runes on my monks, and my members can either choose to run a minor by preference or run the sup.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

Superiors get you killed, and after that, they get you killed even more easily.

wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

At VoD they get you completely owned.

wrong.

Look, you have a distorted view of the picture. The standard HP baseline is a character with a sup rune and either one or two +30HP mods on equipment, running 485 or 515 health. And most characters have a very good choice of running +HP armor for 35 more health. This is the norm. Now a choice can be made to forgo the sup rune and run with a bonus 75 HP. Now your character can withstand an extra lightning strike before dying, fantastic.

The idea that 2 attribute points are trivial is also not correct. Those two attribute points are in your highest specced (most costly) attribute, and therefore relate to more like 3-8 attribute points spread between your other lines.

Yeah, I know WM said they run minors on warriors. WM also ran bull's charge when it sucked, lifebond assassins, and loads of other weird shit. A lot of koreans also run sundering mods, even though they're worse than vamp. The point is, those are just preferences, and they're a good team because of skill, coordination, and communication, not because they run minors on warriors. I've played warrior in probably 500+ mid/high-end gvgs with a sup rune, and I only die when I do something stupid or when it was inevitable (sacrifice on a rout or similar). I have 2 GvG ready PvE warriors with minor swaps, and I almost never use them.

Red Locust · Sep 09, 2006, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

I'm a good PvP'er, and I am telling you that I've ran warriors, rangers, mesmers, necros, eles, ritualists, and assassins in top 100 GvG with sup runes (or preferably 2 major runes if that works out) and been perfectly fine. I'll run dom mesmers with a minor sometimes if the build doesn't need much attribute dedication, and I run crippling anguish mesmers and thumpers with minors always because it's easy.

I don't play monk, but when I make builds I put sup DF runes on my monks, and my members can either choose to run a minor by preference or run the sup.

Look, you have a distorted view of the picture. The standard HP baseline is a character with a sup rune and either one or two +30HP mods on equipment, running 485 or 515 health. And most characters have a very good choice of running +HP armor for 35 more health. This is the norm. Now a choice can be made to forgo the sup rune and run with a bonus 75 HP. Now your character can withstand an extra lightning strike before dying, fantastic.

The idea that 2 attribute points are trivial is also not correct. Those two attribute points are in your highest specced (most costly) attribute, and therefore relate to more like 3-8 attribute points spread between your other lines.

Yeah, I know WM said they run minors on warriors. WM also ran bull's charge when it sucked, lifebond assassins, and loads of other weird shit. A lot of koreans also run sundering mods, even though they're worse than vamp. The point is, those are just preferences, and they're a good team because of skill, coordination, and communication, not because they run minors on warriors. I've played warrior in probably 500+ mid/high-end gvgs with a sup rune, and I only die when I do something stupid or when it was inevitable (sacrifice on a rout or similar). I have 2 GvG ready PvE warriors with minor swaps, and I almost never use them.

Like I said, there's nothing wrong with superiors on warriors, so that last paragraph is irrelevant.

Superiors do get you killed more easily, and max health reduction punishes you even more, since it does not take into account your lower health due to a superior when calculating. That much I don't know why you'd argue :|
That's the only reason why a lot of people don't run superiors.

Maybe you like to run superiors on your monk/caster/whatever, that's great for you but it's more of a personal choice than a "better" thing to do. I know that when we were running a semi-pug gvg squad a couple days ago, we were spiking through you guys (XoO ladder) mad easy, and our warriors were very quick to point that out. I can't say that's entirely due to the superiors, but it played a part.

The +2 gives marginally useful benefits (other than on warriors, who get use out of it constantly), a few extra seconds of duration or a few extra damage, compared to 75hp. 75hp is the better part of a shatter enchant or executioner's strike. Not to mention when you're in splits, that extra hp can make all the difference. I'm not saying WM should dictate what kind of runes to use, but they're a much better example to follow than some random guy on GWG.